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Speaker A Elliot would always say that university faculty are not employees, they are members of the association. I put universities aside for the moment, but going to another kind of association, within most there's is still a managerial hierarchy. There's executive hierarchy, call it that. So even, for example, the Red Cross, which is heavily volunteers, united Way within, for example, charities, there's still a hierarchical organization within those. Well, there's no problem. The issue comes when you get outside of that. Universities will have an administrative structure, okay? And in fact, again, once again explaining time span capability, the MBAs, I would say, you know, I can pretty well remember the year I woke up one morning and said, you know, I don't think I'll ever be president of the University of Manitoba. Not because of any academic limitation, particularly all that could be part of it, too. But as a hierarchy thing, I thought that position, which is probably at that in those days, stratum six was probably beyond me. Right. I would not feel capable and I said that to get them for a feel of what their own capability might be. But the fact is, there still is a hierarchy within the university administration which could be managed and should be often not, by the way, but within the academic side. It's a very different kind of system because my faculty, rightfully so, would never see them as my subordinates. And if I ever called them a subordinate, I'd probably be put on a rail out of town somewhere. And so we were always colleagues. That's the collegial relationship and the classic example where I had authority, but you never wanted to use it. And I had more power, which is personal power, which derives from my position, but it's a very, very different kind of environment. And the example is, I mean, this would never happen in a business sense. When I retired, one of my, quote unquote subordinates took my job, who would now be my boss if I was still back teaching. Right? And you don't get that in other kinds of hierarchies. But I think that some of the basic things still apply, some of the principles some of the principles of communication and role design. Interestingly enough, for example, in universities, a tenure period is typically six years. That's far too long in terms of a managerial concept for a new person to get feedback and so forth. But there's some awkwardness in that, quite obviously.