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Speaker A But in terms of the broader picture, which is teaching undergraduates, I'll start there because that's where I spent a lot of my time. Undergraduates are very neat, they're very bright, they're keen, they want to do well, and they don't have much to go on, so there's very little to undo. And so I could explain a concept like time span or something out of the structural side, even explain the levels, and they could grasp it readily in terms of the mental understanding. Had no difficulty grasping the concepts and would accept them, but more accepted because they had nothing to judge him against. And it sounded as good as anything else he might have heard. Keep in mind, their primary goal was to pass a test. And the critical question was, Dr. Gray, will this be on the final? That was always the bottom line question. But having said that, they had no trouble with the concepts. Now, again, keep in mind, because of the and we've talked many times about this at this conference here in Toronto and others as well, is the politics of teaching Ro in universities. And so I can never use not that it was a good book to use, by the way. I can never use an Ro textbook. I couldn't have used Las Records Organization, for example, for undergrads because it was too narrow in the sense of its focus. And there is a curriculum requirement. You got to cover some traditional kinds of things and so it just wouldn't have fit. And if I had have made it fit, it would have been the cost of an extra textbook, which would have been even more politically difficult. So I'm left with a traditional principles of management textbook or principles of organizations behavior. And I would weave in the concepts as we went through. I never had to mention, nor to have a need to Elliot Jackson or Wilford Brown. I just taught the concepts as a tool. A matter of fact, the first day of class, first week of class, the first concept I would teach was time span, because I always saw this as the atom of the concepts. And if you understand the atom, the molecules, how they work, the rest of it becomes very understandable. So by week one, they had a clear knowledge of what work was prescribed, discretionary, time span, how it works up in the hierarchy, and so this was the primary tool I would use. Everything else was they could understand strategic planning as a time horizon concept. For example, they can understand why some shop or workers get bored because they have very little discretion in their jobs. And so it was a very useful concept to use for undergraduates. Now, the limitation is they have no frame of reference. Many of them have not worked very much, certainly not in a managerial job, rarely at least. And so for them, it was a fairly sterile clinical concept that they enjoyed they understood, but really had no anchor to it because they had no background. So you make the leap there to MBAs. You're making a leap, first of all, recently and recently, meaning the last 20 years of MBA education, you're making a leap of age of at least ten years, sometimes more, because MBAs in that period started requiring not only work experience, but meaningful work experience. And so the age is more than simply undergrad plus one. It's usually plus ten. And they've got, again, anywhere from three to ten years work experience. So now they have an anchor, they have a frame of reference. So what would change is in terms of the teaching of my experience, first of all, again, no trouble understanding the concepts, a little bit of skepticism at the outset because they thought this was going to be complicated. And we look at time span. It's not complicated. It's a very simple concept. So once they got over the idea this wasn't something complicated, then it really hit home. Now, nothing, they weren't critical. And MBAs are very good at asking questions, whereas undergrads will simply write down what you say and take it for granted. So a very good interchange, very challenging questions, but they had the anchor, and the anchor was the source of their questions. But as soon as you started talking about the manifestation of dysfunctional behavior organizations due to problems and nonrequisite structures, they would say things like, greg, you've been reading my mail. This is why I came back to school, to get out of that mess. And now I understand why it was a mess. And so they really would buy into it very, very quickly. And probably the highlight of my career was we started a new program at the University of Manitoba in 1999. It was a radical in the sense it was a one year concentrated program. So in and out in eleven months, actually. And I really wanted to do the whole eight weeks I was going to do on Ro because I had that freedom at that stage. And Elliot agreed to meet with my class on a video conference. And so we spent seven weeks studying the concepts and the book and all that kind of stuff and spent literally, I think it was 5 hours on a Saturday morning, elliot on a video conference back in Massachusetts and us in Manitoba, and the students still talk about that. He's got to listen to him. And I can tell you he was inspiring to them, critical as well, because they would challenge his thoughts and he would come back with his normal kind of comments. But it was a very, very good experience. So MBAs would really buy into it. And if I've had any converts in my life that I've kept track of it's with the MBA students because they came in journey as managers, they left as managers. They glide into companies, they have a chance to apply this stuff. I don't know of anybody who reorganized an entire company. There may be some, but I'm not aware of it. But the beauty of the model is you can use pieces of it to make yourself a more effective manager and even your own unit. And as I told many people, given the thousands of MBA students I've taught over the years, one of the things I would tell them on day one is we're going to share these concepts and one thing we're going to end up with is a common language. Because if you understand Ro and you understand the concepts and the properties, we don't need to spend a lot of time on definitions. We understand what we're talking about. So I can walk through and have most any airport in Canada, some in the US. Rarely in China, obviously, but certainly in Canada. And I can see an MBA graduate in the distance and we're both rushing to our planes and we're going to pass and we can't stop and talk. And about 30ft away I will say, Charlie, how are you doing? And they'll say, great. Stratum four sales work and we pass and that's it. And I say, I now know the kind of work they do, the level of responsibility they have, something about their career development because I knew what they were coming into the program and finally how much money they make. And other than talking about the weather in Winnipeg, there's not a whole lot more to talk about beyond that. So it's a very efficient conversation. And I would develop concepts in my classes and we would repeat those afterwards and I won't go through those now. There's no time. But anyway, MBAs are very good. They challenge you. It's like they're from Missouri. They got to be showing and prove it to me. But it doesn't take much to prove it. And they really got into them. The toughest audience I found are the executives and more senior, the more tough. And the reason is there's more to undo. They do understand the dysfunctional parts of organizations. They see them daily. But of course, as we know, they blame it on people. It's a people problem. I've got the wrong people. Or I can't do because of the union. They get all kinds of excuses and they spent their lives rationalizing why they can't do anything about it. And they are the most critical. And not that that's bad either. I joy people challenging ideas. They're the most skeptical and they are the hardest to probably turn around. Now, again, I don't want to lay too much on them. It may be my own limitations. These things are generally short exposures, like a one or two day program. And I don't think I've saved any souls on a one or two day program, nor does anybody else as far as that's concerned. And I haven't had the many opportunities to have a long term opportunity to talk to executives and managers and work with them and chim and get them to see how that can help others. I'm sure have done that. But in my experience and my limited experience with that, that's been my situation.