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Speaker A You could take many forms, but the basic principle is that you would and in glassier they had the stratum. So in those days, we called them rank. But stratum one, two, three and four. And the people, people up through Stratum Three were in fact members of unions. The three were like engineers who were members of professional unions. And so there was a system by which each strata elected a representative and Stratum One had more than one. But again, you go back to the theory, his theory of conflict resolution. The number of people on council makes no difference because it's not majority voting. And it really takes all the political machinations out of a council because the number of people you have is a function of whose views you want, not how many votes you want. So in any case, Stratum One had, as I recall, might have been three or four. I think Stratum Two had two or three. Stratum three had one. And then the time I was there, there was no Stratum Four rep. That may have changed over time. And the chair of Worst council will happen to be the company physician. Reason one, he was in a non managerial role. Number two, he was respected and seen as neutral and so forth and so on. And Brown then represented all the Stratum Four and Stratum Five managers as the managing director. So the constitution is conceptually quite simple. There's no majority voting. Everybody has the right to veto. There are limits on what comes to council. You can never bring something to council that affects an individual employment role. So you can't have other people determine what happens in your managerial role. For example, certain things that are not council's business, like advertising campaigns, okay, so we're talking here policy issues, and they dealt with policy issues and most importantly, most stringently policies that affected employees, okay? So we're talking wage rates, working conditions, things like this. And what they would do in those days, which was quite unique and I think is a great model today, is they never tried to replace the trade unions. The trade unions had a role to play and Worst Council never tried to interfere with that. Sometimes the reps on council were the trade union reps, sometimes they were not. But that was up to the people who elected them. And Wilford was very keen on role definition and role separation. And when you operated at council, very clear you were in your representative role and whatever you said there, whatever you did, you could not be held accountable for in your managerial role. And so that kind of role protection, if you want to call it that, preserved the integrity of council and gave people the comfort level. They were going there and could speak their mind and something would not bad happen to them later on. So imagine all these things coming to council and the agenda would be anywhere from working hours to maybe wages and salaries and so forth. And bottom line was it was a unanimous voting council. And if you felt like you could not live with what council wanted to do in terms of a policy development implementation, you simply voted no. And then the principle of worst Council was that if council can't reach agreement, then nothing changes. And so things like introduction to technology, working additions, maybe vacation plans, wage and salary, all those things came to worst Council. And there was always pressure to get something done because if a company does nothing and no changes ever implemented, then it's not going to be a very good company. So everybody knew this. So by and large, if an issue, as I said before, I don't recall the veto ever being used, but people could sense when there wasn't consensus. So rather than having to put you in a spot of having to drop your black marble, so to speak, they just kind of said, well, let's go back and discuss this for another meeting and bring them back next meeting. And in that 30 day period, because it met once a month in the lunchroom of the company, all the discussion went around on the outside, all the negotiations, and eventually it came back for a formal vote when everybody knew they agreed. So the vote was literally a rubber stamp. But if you don't understand what went on behind the scenes, that rubber stamp is very, very misleading. There's a lot of discussion that went on. By the way, they had constitution, which I still have a copy of the original constitution. And one of them was that anybody could attend Works Council, any employee, but they could not speak. Only representatives were allowed to speak to an issue. And apparently there was one instance where one of the Stratumborn reps, or maybe more than one, had not done his homework, had not communicated well with his constituent group. And there was a thing coming up about, I recall it was an overtime pay or something like this. And the word got out amongst the employees that this rep was not well prepared to voice their concerns. And so they knew the rules that they couldn't come to council and speak. So what they did was they came and imagine a lunchroom that might have held 200 people and there's kind of a circle in the middle of the tables where the council met. And around the outside in this huge lunchroom were probably three to 400 employees, all carrying signs. And the signs are directed at the stratum one rep to make sure he got the message of what their views were on this particular issue. So that would be probably in my research on it, about the most anything happened. In fact, they are quite mundane, but they were very much ingrained in the culture. People understood how works. Council worked.