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Speaker A I just wanted to give you a flavor of how that collaboration worked. I think the usefulness may be that I suspected in the work we do, the that certainly is true for the work I do. If you try and do serious consultancy work, you're always working through long term partnerships. If I look back over the last few years of my work, there's some client or champion within the client organization who's become a friend, and we work our way at a higher level on important stuff. So it seems to me that I'd like to have you share those stories. Ken wants me to pick up some of these stories. It's not the only great collaboration, but we all do this, I think, when it works really well. So that's my gathering tower. Okay, well, let's begin with a history lesson, because that's my primary tower. I better give you the background of how I never worked with Evans, so my relationship with him was oblique. However, I did work with Wilfred Brown quite intensively. In fact, we produced a little book together. This book is called Bismarck to Bullock. You all know who Bismarck is. You may not know who Alan Bullock is, but he was a distinguished historian. He wrote the famous book A Study in Tyranny about Hitler. But interestingly, he chaired the great this is, I think, still available from the Anglo German Foundation. It's just a little fun book we did, which was based on a that's part of your reading. It was based on a late night, drunken conversation between Wilfred Brown and a wonderful man called Wolfgang Heshweb, who was then the professor of political science at Mannheim University. They got drunk and had this conversation about how extraordinary it was that the Germans began to get the hang of industrial democracy round about the middle of the 19th century. This was an outfall of the so called professionals parliament in Frankfort. You remember the revolutionary period, 1848 49, and the Frankfort Parliament, so called because it was pre unification, came out of this. They were all professional, academic, clever people, bit like this conference. Seriously clever people gathered together and they began to formulate a form of local district and regional works councils coming to a big party. So they had the idea of industrial democracy. They cottoned onto the idea that once your firms begin to get as big as talent, then you need formal structures of representation. You need to distinguish between decision making and policy formation. Wilson Brown always said the workers and I can't do his Scottish accent, but I wish I could. He said the workers are not interested in decision making. They know that's their boss's job and they should get on with it. They do have an interest in policy formation through representation. Of course. That's the principle of our democracy. The important thing for you to understand is that long before Eldrick came on the scene, wilfred Brown was making lassier metal into a kind of working model of industrial democracy. He'd been at it for ten years. So in a way, Eldritch was bent on building or and the theory sorry, R. O. Wilford was bent on making industrial democracy work. So back to the history lesson. The Germans had the hang of this, at least the thinking level, by the middle of the 19th century. And the irony is they were reading mainly Scots writers, thinking the English were doing this. Of course the English weren't. And they haven't yet. The English have not yet caught up forgive me repeating myself. Those of you who were here on legacy day, my formation of this paper is on that chart up there, which I will I have another bit of reading for you over on the left here we have the world of authority, clarity, precision, all of the things I'm sure we value. And over here we have the world of bullshit. And I'm using bullshit in a technical sense. Here with Professor Harry Franklin. Has anybody read his book on this? Professor Harry Franklin was professor of Philosophy at Princeton. He wrote this paper many years ago, and it's called On Bullshit. And it's an extremely helpful discussion. What is the difference between hot air out and out, lying and bullshit? And it's important because if you're telling a lie, you are deliberately deceiving.