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- In a world where data becoming increasingly important, how does the current structure support that? The real principle is what's the work? And then you organize around the work and then you put the people in work. Have the numbers of layers of management match the levels of work?
- The ideal way to get the success is to give that leader more of what he or she needs inside that unit to drive that. Decision as to whether some of that stuff stays in that business unit or not to the business unit leader. Are those units over on the left are they standalone P L business units?
- So that becomes then the question of the whole classic design stuff around shared services. Do you resolve the level of work layers first or do you resolve structure first? I think what I said earlier is kind of iterative exercise more than anything.
- The structure that's currently set up is putting risk and regulatory requirements ahead of innovation. Last group, we thought they were structurally not set up at all to do the innovation thing that they were talking about.
- When there's more service areas than line areas, you have to wonder whether you're serious about your line area. Depending on how those service organizations align themselves to those things. It really depends on, as you say, in your case, you got more of them.
- We're just a little bit over our time, but that's okay. As we move into a diagnostic phase, it's kind of taking this exercise and moving it into what are we going to look at. The answers we'll get depend on the questions we're going to ask. So we have to be really careful about what we close.

- Peggy Wondermoraz has been with Novus for almost three years. She started as an administrative assistant and has worked her way up to human resource is generalist. Now as she progress through Novus, her projects are more long term.
- The word trust has so much more value when you don't have it. That's something that I do feel at Novus. How we put it together and how we work together as individuals is what sets us apart.

- Scott Booktimeyer is the Director of Planning and Analysis at Novus. He says the company's management system helped him transition to his new role. He enjoys seeing the organization establish goals and seeing teams work together to achieve them.

- The army fights in a seven level organization. The business space of the army is nowhere near as consistent as that. We have to be more explicit about this in the business space. This huge undertaking will not be finished in three years. But what we leave behind is a principled way to look at this.

- The Go Society is a co sponsor of a conference in Toronto. It was started by Elliot Jackson, who taught adult education for nine years. The secret of the society is generosity and capturing on video everything. Behind this is a value of non competition and collaboration.
- The Ghost Society attracts intellectuals, introverts, academics, systems, thinkers. They are encouraged to share, to speak on video, and to network. What brings people to our conferences is they are lonely and they want to talk to other high level people.
- In Toronto and in Canada, there are many, many organizations using the method. We are looking for co sponsorships here with ADCA, adra fundesse idea. And we wanted this on video showing the world what can be done.

- Short CEO tenure puts a huge strain on CEOs. RTZ is developing a whole program around corporate governance and thinking about the role of the board. We can help organizations identify the gaps and provide a blueprint for how they can get there in the future.

- When one of us has an idea, the other has to share us. It's also comforting with an executive team to have two different approaches. Work is an unconscious process. You need to share it so that the net effect is greater than the sum of the parts.

- I was almost completing a PhD which I was doing at the Land School of Economics. I found Wolfie Brown and Elliot Jax's work absolutely fascinating. What appealed to me as well was his mixture of theory and practice.
- In the early days Brunel was and possibly still is a bit of a concrete jungle. I had become incredibly interested in the nature of organizations. The whole concept of social welfare, social services, social policy was very close to my interests. It was an incredibly exciting period in British social policy.

- The main work initially at Brunel and I was in virtually practically at the beginning was in the hospital service. We came to see that hospital organization is just not like industrial organization. We got some interesting new material on multidisciplinary team work. This is one of the richest areas in the social welfare field.

- Scott Hine is Executive Director, Strategic Initiatives at Novus International. His role includes a large corporate infrastructure project. He also manages non financial internal audits. How is this different from where he worked before with respect to exercising his full capability?

- There probably aren't seven levels of conceptual complexity. What we think is that there probably are three broadbands. As we go further and further into the information age, the logic of a pure command and control organization is going to be increasingly difficult to make work.
- We think the third level up has a time horizon that exceeds what's possible to plan for now. It has to be concepts. At the executive level, it's necessary for the individual to have the capacity to look forward that long.

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- Richard Brown is the eldest son of Wilfred Brown. Has been involved in personnel and HR for some 35 years. Not currently in a full HR role, but doing interim work. His father's work influences every part of the work that he's doing.
- Elliot always maintained a professional distance between himself and my father. He was employed in Glacier by the Works Council, not by the company itself. This enabled him to have some independence of his. Own. But there was also intense, personal clashes, but differences of opinion.
- When he became Managing Director of Joint Manager of Glacier in the late 30s, he was only 27 years old. In that same year he established the works council within Glacier. He was a committed socialist, a member of the Labour Party. His diary gives insight into the pressures he was under by his subordinates.

- Democracy is great at reducing coercion, but it is completely silent on love. Religion gives you institutions of praying together, of dancing together. We spend virtually zero time on the spiritual, metaphysical world. Only when we join the two together will it be meaningful.

- Harry Levinson was a giant in the field of leadership. He created what is generally accepted modern knowledge about enlightened leadership. His relationship with Elliot Jacks gradually became more and more strained. I regret that the direction that the institute has taken has not been as exciting for him.
- At the core of what we do, in my book, Accountability, Leadership, at the core, it is 90% Elliot Jacks. He managed to offend just about every legitimate management academician other than Jerry Harvey. The reality is they just don't know what he stands for.

- In Australia you have the staff systems and you had the award systems. The key difference in the systems were the employment systems. It was a radical conclusion that if you wanted the staff behavior in quote, then why not make everyone staff?

- Kevin Shaw is the administrative assistant for novice nutrition brands at Novus. Says the Novice management system is a complete package with everyone on the same page from level one to level five to level six. Loves the flexibility the company is giving to its employees to have a healthier lifestyle.

- The individual relationship I talked about before that we're focused on here as well as the business. It's a two way trusting, working and product activist relationship that's going to get the best out of people. Only way to be successful is to engage your team in such a way that you enable them to do their best work.
- The trust issue here is we use trust a little bit loosely between us as human beings. It's a systemic mutual trust that we feel at a deep level we simply take for granted if it's there. And that's the thing that we need to put into place with our organization design. But also the managerial practices.

- Nancy Lee is the principal of a consulting company called Requisite Organization Associates. She says Elliot Jacks provided a total management system that made absolute sense. Lee encouraged Jacks to write a more accessible book. That was the genesis of the book.

- Jerry: I do a lot of work in a thing called anaclytic depression. It's a form of depression that occurs when an idea that gives you emotional support is taken away from you. One reaction to that could be depression. On the other hand, you talked about being stimulated by Elliot.

- I am going to introduce the concept of individual capability. This is our icon for that. There's a broader picture that Sheila will be getting to a little bit later. So she's going to be talking about this icon.
- The next section is purpose. I'm going to assign you a set of scenarios and you are going to prepare a presentation. Your role is to comment on what you see as the problem. Then we'll have you present out your solutions.
- The problem is not level of work and it's not their values, it's their knowledge, skills and experience. The actions would be to upskill or to give that training, learning and development. That's the thing we need to develop it's high values.
- Skills are those things that you develop a capacity, a pattern to do. This person is an ideal role to develop knowledge, skills and get experience. The only issue is the manager would be making sure that in their coaching plan and development plan, they are monitoring it.
- Scenario three: Two levels at level two and two levels at levels three. Lack of leadership for people. Relationship issues might be there for people at the level three B level. recommendation was probably to flatten the organization.
- We are wrapping up our Individual capability section. One little mismatch isn't one little mismatch, it has a 360 effect. Thank you for your engagement. And I want to turn the floor over to Sheila.

- Herbert Kapowas: My first exposure to Ro was in 1978 when a mentee of my mentor said, you have to read a General Theory of Bureaucracy. Paul Tremlet: I first got involved with Requisite in about 1985. Nancy Lee: I have no patience with people who complain about Requisite organization.
- There was a salary structure that was aligning levels to salary bands by using an X measure. And another one to add there maybe a little bit further discussion around what we mean by value the work.
- When you establish castes, there's always going to be a small percentage. It can be a detriment if it's brought on too early and it's an implementation rollout too. It also can backfire in organizations that are accepting it, and you get into stratum snobbery. We struggle a lot with how to conciliate that.
- Requisite is a model, it has skills. The challenging part is what has to be unlearned. Do you really believe that each person you manage has as much potential as they can? We've got the two pieces in the workshop that are relevant here.
- The biggest challenge I had in this was working with probably the best school board in Canada. School boards are not the kinds of places that feel comfortable with the notion that capability is limited in people they really want to. It will always remain emotional conversation. It's never going to be easy.
- There are some things in requisite that are absolutely straightforward and there are predictable ways of misunderstanding them. Majority of organizations need hierarchy. Efficient and build trust. But do it right. Tomorrow we're going to dig into work.

- When Elliot would come to class, you'd say, anything you want to tell me before we get started? He pointed out that the relationship between students and faculty is an accountability hierarchy. Some people on our faculty will not permit Elliot's work to be discussed.

- The third area I call engineering is an art rendered in a science. Engineering is a system of templates and methods that are grounded in science. Almost our entire field is craft. Understanding that the templates need to be justified by the science allows me to be a lot more flexible.

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